[MLton] mlton.org content migration

Stephen Weeks sweeks at sweeks.com
Sat Jun 18 10:10:42 PDT 2011

Matthew is taking the initiative here, so if he is fine with
sourceforge, then I'm OK with going back to it.  It does seem that a
unified service will have the lightest administrative load.  As to the
cost, I currently pay about $450/yr for the mlton.org linux vps, and
Reactive at least sounds willing to contribute some.  So, I don't think
we should feel pressured to go for a free solution if an inexpensive
(hundreds of dollars per year) paid solution will make users' and
administrators' lives better.  I'm not actually suggesting one, just
making sure that we're not ruling something out for financial reasons.

As to web site, I do think it's essential that people can type
mlton.org into their browsers and get to the right place, and very
nice if mlton.org can continue to appear in the web site as they
browse.  IIRC sourceforge even supported tricks to do this 8 years ago
when we used them, so I would guess they do now too.

As to web content, I think a static site is completely fine for MLton.

As to source code, we should initially transition using svn, but I'd
advice keeping the ability to switch to something more modern (hg,
git, ...) eventually.

Whenever you want to move, just let me know.  I'm happy to make
whatever DNS changes are necessary (I have mlton.org registered
through godaddy).

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Matthew Fluet <matthew.fluet at gmail.com>wrote:

> I've continued to research alternative hosting solutions for the
> mlton.org content.  My preference is still to migrate back to
> SourceForge.net.  I've done some preliminary work and experiments, and
> I think that most of the transition would be straightforward.
> There were some concerns about SourceForge being "slow".  My
> experiments show that it is actually faster than the current mlton.org
> hosting provider.  Here are three experiments:
> 1) I exported the MLton Subversion repository and imported it into
> mlton.svn.sourceforge.net.  I performed a "/usr/bin/time svn checkout"
> of mlton/trunk at HEAD from both, with the following results over five
> trials:
> mlton.org:
>       54.62 real         1.41 user         2.62 sys
>       67.31 real         1.41 user         2.62 sys
>       47.28 real         1.41 user         2.64 sys
>       42.38 real         1.40 user         2.60 sys
>       52.38 real         1.41 user         2.61 sys
> mlton.svn.sourceforge.net:
>       18.18 real         1.86 user         2.59 sys
>       19.40 real         1.87 user         2.61 sys
>       20.37 real         1.86 user         2.61 sys
>       19.45 real         1.87 user         2.58 sys
>       20.33 real         1.87 user         2.54 sys
> So, the slowest SourceForge checkout is half the time of the fastest
> mlton.org checkout.
> 2) I copied the mlton-svnroot.tar.bz2 file (48M) to
> mlton.sourceforge.net.  I performed a "/usr/bin/time wget" of the file
> from both, with the following results:
> mlton.org (one large):
>       40.98 real         0.11 user         0.80 sys
>       41.50 real         0.11 user         0.79 sys
>       40.33 real         0.10 user         0.79 sys
>       40.98 real         0.11 user         0.79 sys
>       41.48 real         0.11 user         0.81 sys
> mlton.sourceforge.net (one large):
>       41.19 real         0.06 user         0.68 sys
>       42.30 real         0.06 user         0.68 sys
>       40.84 real         0.05 user         0.57 sys
>       40.78 real         0.06 user         0.61 sys
>       42.21 real         0.06 user         0.63 sys
> So, nearly identical performance for downloading one large file,
> indicating that the bandwidth for web content is about the same.
> 3) I copied the guide/ directory from mlton.org to
> mlton.sourceforge.net.  These are static HTML snapshots of the wiki
> from the past three releases (plus corresponding .tar.gz files),
> totaling 7.4M over 401 files.  I performed a "/usr/bin/time wget -r
> -np -l inf" of this directory from both, with the following results:
> mlton.org (many small):
>       39.50 real         0.12 user         0.27 sys
>       40.67 real         0.12 user         0.27 sys
>       41.05 real         0.12 user         0.27 sys
>       41.20 real         0.12 user         0.27 sys
>       41.12 real         0.12 user         0.28 sys
> mlton.sourceforge.net (many small):
>       17.56 real         0.12 user         0.21 sys
>       20.64 real         0.11 user         0.20 sys
>       16.87 real         0.12 user         0.20 sys
>       15.92 real         0.11 user         0.20 sys
>       15.99 real         0.11 user         0.20 sys
> So, the slowest SourceForge fetch is about half the fastest mlton.org
> fetch, indicating that the latency for web content is much better on
> SF.
> Of course, what that doesn't test is speed of dynamic content
> generation, which might or might not be important.  Currently, all of
> the wiki content of mlton.org is dynamic content, but it isn't clear
> that it would be easy or worthwhile to install MoinMoin on MLton's
> SourceForge project web.
> The mlton-{devel,user}@lists.sourceforge.net mailing lists still
> exist, though had been purged of subscribers.  I worked through all of
> the MailMan admin screens and configured them to reject all spam (as
> identified by the SourceForge.net spam filters), to hold all
> non-subscriber posts for moderation, to accept all subscriber posts,
> and to admin approve subscription requests.  [There are also
> mlton-{announce,commit}@lists.sourceforge.net mailing lists,
> configured as read-only.]  As I mentioned previously, I think that
> this is the simplest configuration.  Certainly simpler than the
> configuration currently on mlton.org, with its whitelist and no
> automatic spam filtering.  As I noted previously, we can also import
> our existing archives, although they end up not as pipermail archives,
> but as SF's "forum archives" [which I admit are significantly less
> navigable than the pipermail archives].  It is also trivially to copy
> our existing pipermail archives (they are just static web content)
> over to mlton.sourceforge.net.  In a perfect world, it would be nice
> to continue to add new messages to the pipermail archives.  Since one
> can access the mbox archives of SF mailing lists for backup purposes,
> it might be possible to do so, though non-trivial as pipermail seems
> to be fairly tightly integrated with mailman.
> That leaves the wiki content.  As noted before, SF provides MediaWiki,
> but at a rather deeper URL than just mlton.sourceforge.net.  Also, as
> noted before, we would lose many of our wiki macros for pulling in
> content directly from the Subversion repository.  Also, we would lose
> syntax highlighting of SML code (whether directly in the page or
> pulled from the Subversion repository).
> One option is to move to a completely static site via a static site
> generator.  There seem to be quite a number of tools for generating
> HTML from simplified markup.  I don't imagine that it would be too
> difficult to migrate the MoinMoin markup to a different markup.
> Ideally, we would use a tool that could be extended with analogs of
> our existing wiki macros and could make use of highlighting of SML
> code (i.e., using enscript or Pygments).  My "vision" would be to
> place the markup pages plus any plugins/extensions to the base tool
> under version control, which would ensure that anyone could rebuild
> the site.  Updating the web content from the version control content
> would be a nightly cron job (or possibly triggered by commits).
> Those are my thoughts.  Migrating the Subversion repository is very
> quick (a couple of hours).  Migrating the mailing lists would be a
> couple of days: freezing the lists; requesting the import of mbox
> archives; allowing @mlton.org MX record to propagate through DNS.
> Migrating the web content would be quick (once there existed a means
> to generate the web content), plus the time to allow *.mlton.org CNAME
> records to propagate through DNS.
> _______________________________________________
> MLton mailing list
> MLton at mlton.org
> http://mlton.org/mailman/listinfo/mlton
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